painlover… ill reply to you in the 447 translated chapter… cuz this will get burried

Ever heard of the saying “Jack of all trades, but master of none”?

Referencing the principle, perhaps one can use 5 elementals, but, they would have an affinity to be an expert on perhaps 2 of the elements they’ve mastered.

In example, Let say Sasuke can use 4 elemental jutsus, although he could use all, but he is still a lot better on Lightning and Fire compared to the other elements. So the two is his trump card.

In the battle, the kages didn’t show to full extent the elementa they’ve mastered, because they were busy countering another elemental jutsu their opponent was using.

If a Jonin can at least control 2.

I have no doubt a Sannin can control at least 3 and a kage-level person could control at least 4.

all i know is ….information about the rinnegan is incomplete…it’s still not clear for me…

lol it does give the user access to all chakra natures.

thats one of the whole points behind the rinnegan.

where have you been lol.

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we were having a debate whether there was six chakra natures….i give him this

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/11/

combined with the chapter where they discuss Yin&yang

oh by the way this is proof that the rinnegan gives acess to all chakra elements where as it is impossible for others to have all six because it takes so much time.

pain did not use the jutsu because he is in a freakin wheel chair lol.

skimming thru ur debate… it seems its something we’ve already discussed and you didnt do so well, lol… theres no 6th element… yamato and kakashi do mention the yin and yang… but not as a 6th element… nowhere do they say the word 6th element or as another element… yin and yang is something different from the 5 chakra elements. not sure if there was something else you mentioned in ur debate cuz i just skimmed thru it… but id gladly join if u somewhat summary things.

@deathwalker and daniel

about the sage of the 6th path… i agree with deathwalker… just because hes introduced ninjutsu, doesnt means hes the best at it… he was simply a pioneer… like many pioneers… they introduced ideas and methods… but following generations would surpass them…

rinnegan does not neccessarily give the wielder the ability to use all 5 elements… theres no proof or reason to believe such… nagato learned the abilities from jiraiya easily due to rinnegan… but the same goes for sharingan… wielders of sharingan do not get to master 5 elements… the only thing is confirmed about rinnegan, is that (just like sharingan) it gives the wielder the ability to easily learn and execute the abilities taught or developed by the wielder… pain as a whole didnt even use any abilities of the 5 elements against naruto (not that he didnt know any)…

shinrai tensei is not neccessarily an ability of the rinnegan… it could be an ability he learned or developed by nagato… maybe he learned it from the sage of the 6 paths himself, if they met or corssed paths… but if nagato never met the sage of the 6 paths, then he wouldnt know that the sage supposedly have created the moon and it could just be some rumor or tale.

all im saying is that u guys are overestimating rinnegan when it would not neccessarily be as overpowered as you guys theorize.

im not jumping in painlovers debate cuz i dont know how it starts n stuff so id need some summary.

In Chapter 316, Naruto asks Kakashi and Yamato about the kagemane and baika no jutsu, medical jutsu, and genjutsu. Yamato announces that they are related to yin and yang. I may have an inkling of how to explain it so.

When I first came to look at kageman no jutsu, I had a theory in my head that it used a pint of earth element because it is restricted to the ground and, like many other dotons, it is used for trapping purposes. That still may apply, but maybe there is more to it. With yin and yang, however, it may be more reasonable. See, Sakura mentioned in the past that body energy (yin) is derived from the cells and muscles and etc from your body. So the concept of the kagemane jutsu can very well be to target one’s yin and restrict it. Being caught by the kagemane binds your body, or in other words, clamps down on your yin.

The baika no jutsu can also be seen as yin-oriented because the user inflates their own parts or their whole body. Where as the kagemane targets an enemy’s yin, the baika is all about the user’s own yin. We’ve heard of focusing chakra to your feet or how Kiba focuses chakra to his nose, this can very well be focusing chakra to a part of your body.

You’re interested in the next one, I can see. How am I going to describe medical jutsu in all of this mess?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/235/06/

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/235/17/

From the words and thoughts of Tsunade it is not hard to see a correlation between the Nara and Akimichi Clan. And in sense of their jutsus, from what I stated above, there lies connection there as well. From this, I believe that medical jutsu also plays on body energy or yin. Because all three divisions: baika, kagemane, medical, Tsunade was able to conjure up a successful medicine. The research and documentation of one field can help, somehow, someway, to another. That is because the three all focus on the same principle. Yin.

But I haven’t forgotten about the power from what we’ve seen medical jutsu do. Tsunade’s and Sakura’s monstruous strength. Healing of wounds. Extracting poisons. Chiyo reviving life. I haven’t forgotten that.

How is it possible? How are they connected? Those punches can’t simply a focus to the fist, otherwise they should likewise be capable of focusing to the legs and be speedy critters all capable of skilled body flickers (shushin). But that’s not the case. It is different.

The inner coil system.

This is why, to my belief, medical ninjas have to be so precise and knowledgable. They are dealing with the inner coil system. Not only that, but they can’t visually see it. They have to play it out and weave through the system through their own head. In their mind. Most difficult.

It is also mentioned the coil system layers the inner organs, which provides a means to healing. And it is related metaphorically to as “veins” which connect to every ounce of the human body. Not only that, remember yin is about the energy released from the body’s cells. Reactivating these cells or triggering these cells to another person, or to yourself constitues life.

I would even dare to say that the Yamanaka Clan jutsu of body switching and body manipulating is founded on the yin principle. All of them tightly revolve around the body. The yin. But with the Yamanaka Clan, there is a hint of spiritualness. Some yang is apart of it. Almost like a genjutsu.

I said it. A genjutsu.

I, myself, am abit skeptical of truly defining genjutsu. But I’ll try nonetheless. It is said genjutsu disrupts one’s chakra flow. Remember the hourglass chart? As you can see, a disruption of flow can be critically and is surely, as the manga states, only used and understood by the intellectually-minded.

Body contact isn’t needed for genjutsu. This is perhaps the sole purpose I bank it being spirituall (yang) based. And this, can very well be, why Sakura is estimated to surpass her teacher Tsunade. Medical jutsu is likely the highest tier of body/yin use there is. Much like how rasengan is the best of form manipulation. And for Sakura to also get a grasp of genjutsu, the opposite field medical jutsu, the spiritual/yang, would be a remarkable accomplishment.

You can almost say it would be worthy to note such a combination as substantial as Naruto using element and form manipulation. Look back at the hourglass chart. It would seem Naruto is in the upper half and Sakura inclined to the lower half.”

i agree with virtually everything you said. i like having these debates because it not only push’s my thinking to the limmits(well…….on naruto lol)ut it helps me understand the narutoverse better.

i understand where you get that all shiniobi use Yin&Yang.

maybe this will help those that are confused

“Chakra.

The foundation of jutsus can be expressed through flow, form, or element manipulation. This is what has been given to the audience. These terms and principles help us understand just what is going on and breaks things down to a more logical base.

Research and studies and in-manga evidence can define those three major principles. We can get into such talk later. But first I would like to analyze the concept of “yin and yang.” Yes, the topic few would dare to consider because so little of it has been discussed.

Well, first I would like to debunk the usual misconception that the term yin and yang are defined as opposites. They are not absolute opposites. It is not a light and dark, positive nd negative, or good and evil relationship. The idea of yin and yang is that one is the seed of the other. There is no harmony without the other.

It is like the heads and tails of a coin, different sides, same coin. Without the heads, or without the tails, the coin has no value.

So it should be understood that yin and yang are not opposites, and are, in fact, heavily intertwined around the other. With that clarified, a better picture of how it is resembled in the Naruto world can come into view.

When the idea of elemental properties was recently explained to be an essential skill for ninjas, the audience was baffled and proclaimed “why hadn’t Kishimoto made mentioning of such things before?” The complaints and confusion were easily quieted with text from this page, showing that the idea of elements have long been apart of chakra use.

It is the same with yin and yang. They have long been apart of chakra use. If you look at that picture, there is another panel getting into the foundations of chakra. The converging of spiritual and physical energy to get chakra. The two are one, in the sense that both are required to create chakra. They are intertwined. What am I getting at is spiritual energy is yang and the physical energy is yin.

the yin and yang symbol is used respectively for the body and spiritual aspects of creating chakra. Kishimoto is not a fool. Just like the concept of elemental properties, yin and yang has long been implemented in the equation of it all.

Is it safe to go on? With such analysis, is it safe to have yin and yang be the body and spiritual properties to creating chakra? With that understood, I will try to come to terms of how it can be used.

It seems to me, that the chakra system has an hourglass path.

Form Element
\ /
\ (flow) /
\ /
Chakra
/ \
/ (flow) \
/ \
Body “yin” Spiritual “yang”
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i will go on next post.

About Rikudou’s strength I don’t know, the bow and arrow logic is fine, but don’t forget that the Rinnegan provided him with jutsu like Shinra Tensei, Nagato even said that Rikudou was said to have created the Moon with it.

Yeah I’m not saying Nagato is Rikudou itself (even if that was my original theory) Nagato while being his reincarnation is different person. Rikudou was the saviour, Nagato is the destroyer (if it wasn’t for Naruto lol).

To put this as simple as possible, there were no shinobi back in his days, he devolped the basis of ninjutsu and the first jutsu’s, so he had abilitys the other people didn’t so he had the advantage. Over time things evolve, they grow better and stronger.

The first guy who created a bow and arrow was thought of being powerfull sence no one else had one, so say you go back in time with a machine gun, would he still be powerfull?

PS. To Daniel, if nagoto is the reincarnation of the sage of 6 paths then it is in body and ability only, the sage of the 6 paths was a preist and peacefull.